Betsie, baby - S12 Gazelle

[v1jilante]

This car has been a damn slow build, the fire has gone out a few times but has been stoked again (I don't want to be another "unfinished project for saler"). The endgame is to have a trackable fun car for a modest budget, that I can drive there and back.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_pAqzHkpoFV8/R5E-Dbg-_9I/AAAAAAAAARE/ajpFnq5ZuvA/s400/IMG_3042.JPG

Betsie is a March 85 buildplate IRS hatch - bought as an unfinished project... it came with a ca18det dropped in, a broken diff, a smashed rear quarter window and a helluva lot of spare parts (curiously no rear quarter windows).

Drove it 25 kilometers home, with a blitz "loosened for noise spec" bov + exedy puck clutch it made for some very interesting clunks chirps and ppsscchhts, sometimes all in chorus - mad.

Picked up a new diff and passenger side driveshaft from Nebuchernezzer and got driveable again. Teardown of the old diff showed the spider gears had munched themselves in a pretty bad way.

After driving for a few days noticed there was a loud clunk when approaching full lock, jacking up the car and inspecting showed that it was running S13 struts/S12 hats in the S12 tower, at full lock the spring came uncaptive an smacked into the shock tower - also noticed it was running pov spec ca18de front discs and calipers, which appeared to be smaller than the stock S12 gear.

Needless to say, unhappy, but couldn't complain - you get what you pay for and I didn't pay much. Sorted some GET (KYB) coilovers and CA18DET calipers with EBC pads and rotors.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_pAqzHkpoFV8/R5A-XLg-_zI/AAAAAAAAAPc/VZXYZHCgTuc/s400/fitted_coilover_below.jpg

The rest of the front end was noticed to be two things, finger tight (unfinished project, remember!), and all the bushes shot, got some S13 LCAs, S13 yashio factory castor rods and S14 castor rod brackets - turns out the S12 rack was ok just needed a new low pressure line so the S14 one has been put away for a rainy day. Manual steering would have been nice but retro fitting it also requires a manual steering engine crossmember (different diameter rack/bushes).

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This setup has sorted Betsie with some more front end adjustability past the povo spec factory adjustment, and a wider front track.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_pAqzHkpoFV8/S0HqwGEBtqI/AAAAAAAAA3k/MMgkpH0yjDg/s400/IMG_3255.JPG

Inherited a Nismo flywheel and mated it with the exedy clutch already in there new throwout bearing, new clutch slave (the clutch slave let go in peak hour traffic on the harbour bridge, but thats another story entitled how I learned to match revs under pressure).

It's running stock 7psi without a cooler using a hacked up standard crossover pipe (which corky bell assures me is OK) - but I would like to be able to turn up the wick a little.

Got an S13 kit dummy mounted the cooler and slightly modified the front bar, but it's pushing out the front bar and just not to my general liking - I don't like the underbite intercooler mounting style I see so often.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_pAqzHkpoFV8/R5A-X7g-_2I/AAAAAAAAAP0/wBNBTE0fgzg/s400/intercooler_pipe_location_mockup_-_just_fits.jpg

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_pAqzHkpoFV8/R5A-YLg-_3I/AAAAAAAAAP8/T0vQ23X2BGs/s400/initial_intecooler_placement_for_ideal_airflow.jpg

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_pAqzHkpoFV8/Rwd0nIgDO5I/AAAAAAAAAMk/Nsb-EIAAyv4/s400/IMG_0622.JPG

A bit more front end tweaking and intercooler placement logic and I should almost be at my goal, and it'll be time to go lose it's track virginity.

[Vashcat]

Subscribed!
Lets see some more full shot photos!

[*bj*]

I love these cars! Show us some love and post more pics :D

[Gdekwant]

Have you seen this?

http://motormavens.com/2010/01/carspotting-lowdown-heartbreaker-s12-200sx/

Best looking S12 ive ever seen.

[kaws!]

S12s are excellent <3

[nebuchernezzer]

Go the S12s! :)

[Jim]

Have you seen this?

http://motormavens.com/2010/01/carspotting-lowdown-heartbreaker-s12-200sx/

Best looking S12 ive ever seen.

that's henry's car! he posts on aus12.org

love the s12 man, killer cars!

[Serial Killa]

Go with it Matty :)

Good to see it progressing

[tipper_86]

YEW gaz's are awesome i miss mine actually :(

[lukecivic]

phat gaz man! ill be watching this space

[v1jilante]

Thanks for the comments fellas.

A nice concise(ish) buildup of HenryS12 can be found at japanesenostalgiccar.com (http://japanesenostalgiccar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6078) the attention to detail is really quite awesome, it's a combo of creative (check out the "pumpkin" / numerous pink highlights/hidden stencil art) and technical that I think really makes it stand apart.

With regards to full shot photos, I dont actually have any! Betsie is definitely no show queen, purpose built for the track with function over form so I really havent paid any real attention to cosmetics, it's not a beater however nowehere near concourse =)

Sorted out the steering to remove crazy toe that couldn't be adjusted out, now have custom tie rods and tune agent R32 tie rod ends, much beefier end with spacer built in to handle the extra low and a rod that is 14mm the whole length rather than tapering. Centered the rack, lubed it, boots on tie rods and ends on.

(New custom combo at top, s13 in the middle, s12 at the bottom)

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_pAqzHkpoFV8/S2ay70ZPCyI/AAAAAAAAA8A/vy-wPSd-dhg/s800/IMG_3477.JPG


Also got some coated braided lines to replace the 20 and 25 year old stockers rubber ones.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_pAqzHkpoFV8/S0HmVVrb6II/AAAAAAAAA24/ISHvObPYBpo/s800/IMG_3513.JPG

I know there is no split pin, front end not torqued yet.
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passenger front line turned round on me... was using a flare nut spanner which is the right tool for the job too dammit.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_pAqzHkpoFV8/S0HmNRNVm1I/AAAAAAAAA2s/Cly-xxutfFM/s800/IMG_3510.JPG


loctite freeze/penetrant and the nut f#%$ers (vise grips) and it was sorted, after speaking to a mate got some advice - tap gently with a rubber hammer on the spanner to TIGHTEN it ever so slightly to break the thread, then tap to undo.. this method worked like a charm on the rears.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_pAqzHkpoFV8/S0HmfegxJCI/AAAAAAAAA3M/_LElGLCxYDQ/s800/IMG_3517.JPG

Also proceeded to flush the cooling system for what felt like forever till it was clear out of the block, and no more flakes of iron oxide came out of the radiator. Was using tectalloy.. wtf - I thought all these coolant things had corrosion inhibitor in them.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_pAqzHkpoFV8/S2o8yez1ayI/AAAAAAAAA9M/8_viyXIguak/s800/IMG_3582.JPG

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_pAqzHkpoFV8/S2o3wzOrA4I/AAAAAAAAA9A/s5mhQyA-1Fk/s800/IMG_3613.JPG


Torqued up the entire front end to factory service manual specs, adjusted pre-load on coilovers (they were like having solid mounts previously - oops) so that springs were just captive and will take it from there adjustment wise.

Put wheels back on, dropped it back on the ground. First time the front end has been on the ground in over a year!! Big milestone for me ;)

Dummy fitted cooler and radiator for clearance. The power steering high pressure line -just- rubs on the side of the radiator and the charcoal cannister needs to move.. wondering what my options are for making my power steering into manual steering (put in fluid, loop lines?) I wanted manual steer anyways.

Much happier with this fitment, no intercooler underbite for me.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_pAqzHkpoFV8/S2o8yJPfmrI/AAAAAAAAA9I/oMuUdJu9sGM/s800/IMG_3567.JPG

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_pAqzHkpoFV8/S2o8yvUiTfI/AAAAAAAAA9Q/_dgRy5zrTOk/s800/IMG_3571.JPG

Battery on charge, going to kick it over soon(ish)

[jOhn-e]

Nice Project :)

[somos]

Wow... so hope you keep going with this...

"intercooler underbite" that was hilarious. First time i've heard that.

Why is she called Betsie? Is there a story behind that?

[nebuchernezzer]

You'll probably find that every now and again you split hoses on the power steering. I did a number of times till i custom made the high pressure side. I re-reouted mine so it wasn't such a bastard to change the line as well.

[v1jilante]

No Mandibular prognathism for me with the happy side effect of a smaller piping run.

All my cars have been named within the first day of owning, nicknames gotta be like that, even if they are crap. =)

It's called Betsie because there was that dymo label sticker on the timing belt cover when I got it.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_pAqzHkpoFV8/R5E-Dbg-_9I/AAAAAAAAARE/ajpFnq5ZuvA/s800/IMG_3042.JPG

my first gazelle was called Johnny5 because it had john scratched into the bonnet

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_pAqzHkpoFV8/RhmhWpDj5CI/AAAAAAAAAAo/tQy-n_R8Nas/s800/IMG_1444.JPG

Bye Johnny, you were a grand beater that refused to die.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_pAqzHkpoFV8/RhmjOZDj5DI/AAAAAAAAAAw/_Z98qhHEzIo/s400/IMG_1454.JPG
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_pAqzHkpoFV8/RhmjOpDj5EI/AAAAAAAAAA4/5FEP-7QDlkg/s400/IMG_1461.JPG

Escaped the crusher and lived outside Autobarn for quite a while.. you may recognise, ended up getting an SR20 transplant, but that another story and somebody elses build. =) Johnny5 - is alive.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_pAqzHkpoFV8/RhmuLZDj5GI/AAAAAAAAABs/F7x-_SALGKs/s800/Image015.jpg
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_pAqzHkpoFV8/RhmuLZDj5HI/AAAAAAAAAB0/5ZAhNYNJBQc/s800/Image086.jpg
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http://lh6.ggpht.com/_pAqzHkpoFV8/RhmuLZDj5II/AAAAAAAAAB8/XyqGXr03wMw/s800/Image156.jpg

[v1jilante]

You'll probably find that every now and again you split hoses on the power steering. I did a number of times till i custom made the high pressure side. I re-reouted mine so it wasn't such a bastard to change the line as well.
Any ideas on making my powered rack manual?... would need fluid for lubrication I guess, was thinking that looping the input/output lines after filling it one last time.

Do you have pics of your setup? How did you go about it - just get a specialist hydraulic line place to make em up after supplying the thread pitch/diameter you needed?

[nebuchernezzer]

Made em at home, but used stainless or ti tubing (i forget which) a flaring tool and a bunch of speedflow style fittings (actually nicked out of a plane of some kind).

I doubt it'd need lubrication through the power section really, manual racks just seem to get by with some grease on the rack and pinion, which the power rack should have as well.

The main thing is that the power rack is going to have a much different ratio to a proper manual rack and might be a bit of a bastard to turn!

Why not just get a proper manual S12 rack and install that?

[v1jilante]

Made em at home, but used stainless or ti tubing (i forget which) a flaring tool and a bunch of speedflow style fittings (actually nicked out of a plane of some kind).

I doubt it'd need lubrication through the power section really, manual racks just seem to get by with some grease on the rack and pinion, which the power rack should have as well.

The main thing is that the power rack is going to have a much different ratio to a proper manual rack and might be a bit of a bastard to turn!

Why not just get a proper manual S12 rack and install that?

Cool - homebrew high pressure hydraulics =)

Spoke to another that has done it today, removed all the piping and looped the inlet into the outlet with small amount of fluid in the rack, is monumentally worse than manual steering when at low speed, ok at higher speeds.

The manual rack is of a smaller diameter, so i'd need a crossmember too, or spacer on the rack - am looking at getting one!

[nebuchernezzer]

At the track you might find that power steering with no power will load up to the point where you physically can't turn it too!

Sounds like a PITA to swap to proper manual but probably worth it :).

[v1jilante]

At the track you might find that power steering with no power will load up to the point where you physically can't turn it too!

Sounds like a PITA to swap to proper manual but probably worth it :).

I couldn't find any titanium tubing kicking around so I sourced a manual rack ;) going to see whats required to get it into the stockers crossmember.

Back to the build...

The standard T25 has some unhappy fins on the compressor side, no idea what caused this as the filter has been in place the whole time! No shaft play to indicate that it may have jiggled about on the turbine side. This is the second stocko T25 that'd destroyed now.

The first one checked out shortly after putting on a china stainless steel manifold.. I even double checked for dags and other crap, obviously they were further up the tubular sections that I could get to =(

welding dag + exhaust turbine spinning @ ridiculous rpm =

not sure this was the kind of back cut I was after.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_pAqzHkpoFV8/S3Y3LL3XrVI/AAAAAAAABAA/lc1MG4ZnVY8/s800/IMG_3781.JPG

damaged the core cover too (look at the fresh metal and dents)
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_pAqzHkpoFV8/S3Y3LnsLvPI/AAAAAAAABAE/YEytRfZyzts/s800/IMG_3788.JPG

Third time around, it's time for an upgrade - i'm definitely not getting another stock ca18det T25 .. in the search for something that won't run out of puff up top but is similarly responsive I figured that the ball bearingness of an R34 GT-R turbo are approximately a 2510 / GT-SS and would be fit for the application at a very low price entry point (remembering this is a budget build!)

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_pAqzHkpoFV8/S3ZHm7JxhjI/AAAAAAAABBA/q1bDi5QY7rY/s800/IMG_3776.JPG

Didn't realise there were so many differences between a GT-R turbo and a standard T2X family turbo... air intake and compressor output are easyily taken care of, it's when you start looking at the turbine side that things are a little different.

First up there is the "compact" exhaust manifolds - (standard t25 gasket laid out on top to highlight the difference in size and stud pattern)

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_pAqzHkpoFV8/S3Y3KDgzr2I/AAAAAAAAA_4/ye_7w3IgPik/s800/IMG_3778.JPG

No problems, just get a new flange for the dump pipe and pay for a bit of welding.

And the other issue, the painful one.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_pAqzHkpoFV8/S3Y3KreqDtI/AAAAAAAAA_8/PYCde_yHE-Y/s800/IMG_3779.JPG

Look at the size of a standard gasket vs the output size of the turbine, also note that the housing is threaded, so the studs want to stick out of the turbo and go into the exhaust manifold (it's usually the other way around)

The two solutions that come to mind are

Drilling out the threads on the flange on the SS exhaust manifold (there is no space to do this on the cast item) using studs on the turbo and and bolting it through.

Finding a broken / worn out / geenrally dysfunctional BB T2X turbo that has a good turbine housing and use it on the R34 GT-R turbo, making it a bolt on for the stock cast, or the <shudder> china SS manifold (it has to be ball bearing, as the centre uses 6 bolts rather than 4).

The R34 GTR turbo I bought came with an R32 GTR turbo as well.. lucky that - in the meantime, to get the bugger on the road, i'm using the R32 GT-R turbo and will swap out the turbine side with my shagged T25 (they are both 4 bolt housing and the A/R looks to be the same) thus making it bolt on for the oem exhaust manifold, and giving me the experience to tackle the R34 one later on.

[nebuchernezzer]

The GTR turbo generall has a small exhaust side with only like 0.48 (or something) AR. When you think about it it's essentially a single turbo off a 1.3L engine. Sure it's a good upgrade and worth stuffing about with?

[v1jilante]

The GTR turbo generall has a small exhaust side with only like 0.48 (or something) AR. When you think about it it's essentially a single turbo off a 1.3L engine. Sure it's a good upgrade and worth stuffing about with?

I didn't know how different the GTR turbos were - I looked at the prices people wanted for their T28BB turbos, threw up and then did a little homework first and worked out i'd be up for a new dump flange, but did not notice that the exhaust side was back to front stud wise. The water and oil lines share the same thread as my t25, had been reading differing write ups on whether they did or not, so was releived when there was no extra spend needed there.

Ideally I thought i'd end up with aball bearing turbo with similar / slightly uprated specs that wasn't technologically ancient like the original T25. Anything more than the 130KW at the wheels in current guise would be nice.

Seeing what you are saying, you think it'd be worth just putting a .64 6-bolt turbine housing on the R34 GTR turbo (provided the turbine fits in the bore, will have to get the calipers out and measure) a t28 at a vastly reduced price for what they are going for, with a bit of spanner work...

The only reason i'm currently travelling down the R32 turbo route is that I already have the bits to bolt together so I have a streetable car (I really only bought both turbos for the R34 BB one), the current T25 surely won't last long with some bent up compressor fins, I dont want bits of wheel to go through my intake, already dealt with bits going through the exhaust! - i'll be able to see how it goes vs the stock T25 - like i said, anything over 130 is a bonus!

/essay =)

[nebuchernezzer]

True, but an S15 turbo can be had for under $300 (well mine cost me less than that a few years ago) so they aren't exactly expensive to save alot of stuffing around.
Just my thoughts anyways :).

[v1jilante]

I could not for the life of me find an S15 turbs for that kind of price, you get all the good deals man. After procuring an exhaust housing I should be a little below that price point only just though, which of course blows out with the time/effort put in.

[v1jilante]

industrial design is supposed to be more functional than this....

After over a year of being tied up pretty severely with more important priorities a few things made me feel motivation in full effect for the first time in ages and start working on this thing again. I'd picked up parts for it, but not done anything with them but stored them in the rather large hatch.
The rego running it's course with the car seeing less than a handful of kilometers of road;
A bit of rust poking through near the sunroof (booooooo);
The build of the Mk2 Gazelle by one-eighty (http://forum.jdmstyletuning.com/showthread.php?26592-s12-love!-my-new-MkII-Gazelle) - thanks for the inspiration man;
As much as I like to look at, thinking my backyard could be used for better things than car storage.

First up was a S13 front sway bar, bolts in with a slight angle on the links due to the shorter S12 track, doesn't look like it will bind or cause issue at the moment, else the fix is a couple of press bends at the local exhaust shop away.
Power steering reservoir/hoses and a couple of hard lines from the rack itself.

Then dropped the oil and coolant, dropping the oil probably wasn't necessary - it came out pretty much honey coloured from the lack of K's since the last change. Bought new oil, coolant, auto-tranny fluid (for the power steering), plugs, oil filter, fuel filter (after seeing the photos of one-eighty's Mk2 fuel tank) and thermostat.
Let it sit for a few days with the new thermostat in to let the gasket goop cure and the oil in the bores to well and truly settle in.

Matched bits of pipe and hose to create a crossover pipe (no cooler at the moment),
Pulled the fuel pump fuse and cranked the engine for a bit just to get it all spun a few times after sitting for so long. Put the fuse back in, let it prime, turned it off and back on to prime again, said a few quick words of prayer to 23-God and kicked it over.
After the initial cough splutter and stop which I expected, cranked it again and it after catching itself a few times on the brink of stalling it settled into a nice idle.
Bled the steering rack aka lock to lock and fill the reservoir.

It's looking a bit more like a car now, and making me feel good about it. =)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXb_IbSGGRc
Sounds best without laptop speakers.

<3 this crapbox.
http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_pAqzHkpoFV8/Tc9kDunzP3I/AAAAAAAABIk/wuhGSdL9auw/s800/IMAG0434.jpg

[v1jilante]

2 things...
1. New Nismo Chromoly flywheel, car feels more responsive but now have a nice grindy noise when the clutch pedal is pushed in, when I bolted the gearbox back up I put in a brand new throwout bearing, as Murphy decreed that I didn't replace it, I suspect the spigot bearing. Sucks! Old heavy bastard flywheel and clutch shot shows the spigot all happy and bronze like...damn


http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Vx5IuUjH8ZQ/S3yheDbY1cI/AAAAAAAABCY/0qKq_G-rOfs/s800/IMG_2971.JPG
Spigot there! What gives.

2. White smokey exhaust, smells like toasted coolant - yay!

No feral looking oil, No oily coolant... suspect coolant is entering turbine via the handme down T25 i've been running with since Neb shattered my R34 GTR turbo dreams ;) - the compressor side looks pretty savaged from the spring in the intake pipe having had a meeting at some point; mental note hard intake pipe, imbalance and age has probably destroyed it, thats what I keep telling myself anyway, otherwise it's headgasket time.

Figuring the shortest path to completion and testing this theory (i.e. the least amount of undoing/doing up nuts and bolts) I opted to leave the turbine side and dump attached to the manifold and bolt on a R32 GT-R T25 hairdryer centre and compressor side I had in the shed. Won't have to undo the turbo or the dump hopefully.

Took the exhaust side off the R32 item with the longest 13mm spanner available and a rubber mallet.


http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-gKokYbtq2SM/TeIySGAmQrI/AAAAAAAABJQ/MInKi2IHor4/s800/IMG_4050.JPG
R32 GTR Stock turbo

Test fit this to the turbine housing I had from dead T25 earlier in the thread, fit like a glove, spun freely.


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-YMkl6P6wikA/TeIySXe3FAI/AAAAAAAABJU/miJpjCBON_M/s800/IMG_4052.JPG
R32 GT-R turbine housing vs Standard CA18DET T25 housing.


Onto the exhaust manifold, came off like a dream, so of course something had to end that run, spent a good couple of hours with banjo bolts, penetrant and eventually a butane torch - anyone know any good tips for removing banjo bolts??


The spanner came out again, more penetrant and rubber mallet and took off the compressor side.


http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-hBnopwTzIiA/TeIyJh5w00I/AAAAAAAABJM/7jJP9AkuAfc/s800/IMG_4049.JPG
Go china manifold port matching.

Proceeded to very slowly and cautiously place the new centre and compressor side into the turbine housing/manifold combo - all went well and I finger tightened the bolts, all good - now tighten with spanner... turbine no longer spins, the R32 turbine is fouling on the T25 housing, what!!!!!!!!!!! Removed the assembly and tried it again on the spare, all is well until the last mm or so of bolt tightening. :shock: FML.

I'll get the calipers out and measure it up to see what the difference is, it can't be much, but this combo isn't going to get the thing going, even as an intermediate step.

I'm only wanting ~160 at the bags with response. It's probably time to just step up to the T28 plate along with coolant/oil lines, snouts and everything else that it entails.

[SeRkZ]

Love the gazelles, friend of mine had a worked one with an fj20, very rare and awesome!

[J]

Awesome stuff! Really like the work that is actually getting into this. Even if it's not a financial blow-out like a heap of projects, there is good mechanical thought behind it, a thing a heap of projects lack totally....

If it's of any help I have a S15/T28BB in need of rebuild you can have?

[one-eighty]

awesome work dude! im glad i was able to motivate you i needed alot of that about a month ago lol, just one thing. loose the s13 sway bar and just run the s12 as they are the same diameter. the angle of the links will effect its function and stress them. other than that thumbs up!

[v1jilante]

Awesome stuff! Really like the work that is actually getting into this. Even if it's not a financial blow-out like a heap of projects, there is good mechanical thought behind it, a thing a heap of projects lack totally....

If it's of any help I have a S15/T28BB in need of rebuild you can have?

Cheers, half the reason it's taken so long was that it is a on a budget orientated build. Still learnt a -LOT- of lessons along the way, a lot of them what not to do. Thanks, you have pm =)


awesome work dude! im glad i was able to motivate you i needed alot of that about a month ago lol, just one thing. loose the s13 sway bar and just run the s12 as they are the same diameter. the angle of the links will effect its function and stress them. other than that thumbs up!

You'd think that seeing it in the back yard everyday would help one get it done, I think it's had the opposite effect. Do you have a carport/garage or are you working on your beast out in the open as well?

I am pretty sure I put it out with the recycling a few weeks ago, I couldn't for the life of me make it fit, which is why I went with the S13 bar, the end links were on such a crazy angle with the standard S12 item that It just wouldn't fit. I'll take a wheel off and use a jack to move the suspension through it's arc and observe (previously did that pre-swaybar install to make sure nothing would bind). Both links are on a few degrees rather than vertical, if worse comes to worse 2x bends each with half of the overall angle should bring it back in and keep it moving as it would naturally, or maybe bend the actual swaybar.